That time I debated trans-rights with some guy in the 9GAG comments
So, I've been frequenting 9GAG a lot lately... I like me some funny memes sometimes and Facebook has been getting boring lately. Since I last frequented 9GAG, the comments have gotten pretty rough (at least I don't remember it being like that). The anti-LGBTQ contingent are in FULL FORCE, which makes me sad for society. The Eastern Europeans are particular caustic when it comes to trans people. I saw one comment from a Turkish commenter that condemned all of Western culture for accepting trans people. The whole thing is exacerbated by this month being LGBTQ month...
In any case... It got me to thinking about the nature of LGBTQ rights, and how the same people who were all about, "my freedom" and "my rights over my body", when it came to the COVID vaccine, are the same people who then condemn people for wanting to transition to another gender. Having been triggered into thinking about this, I really settled into the realization that these freedom warriors, during the COVID pandemic are not really that into true freedom. They want their freedom to do/be/say whatever they want, but they do not extend that same freedom to anyone they do not like.
LGBTQ has made a lot of strides in American society, towards acceptance, in the last couple years. It's really pushing the anti-LGBTQ sentiment to the surface... The pronouns... oh god, don't get them started on the pronouns.
I know I had the trans debate with Bill some years ago, here. I don't know that I really changed Bill's mind off of "they are mentally ill and need treatment", but it the prevailing opinion amongst the 9GAG commenters, only more rabid. Bill argued his position with some sense of decorum and logic... I credit him for that. Not so much, the 9GAG commenters. None the less, I decided that I wanted to try to lure one or more of them into debating the topic, to see if I could find someone willing to follow the logic and understand the situation from the eyes of a trans person. It went about as well as could be expected.
I'll start with the original 9GAG post (posted on June 9th), and my comment (lure for debate):
Man, all of you anti-LGBTQ people must really hate freedom.
It didn't take long to get a response... I didn't realize at first, but it was the guy that posted the meme (the original poster, "OP"). Below is the entire text of the comment thread (unedited - typos and all), saved here for posterity:
you call ruining people life freedom? Hahaha funny
These are people making their own decisions about who they want to be and how they want to live their lives. That is the very definition of freedom.
Like make own decisions to ruin others life? If you keep your sexuality to your pants and your mental illness ideology to your community only, you can fuck as many butthole as you want and collect any kind of std, we don't care. You guys can jump of off bridge we don't even care a bit. BUT stop ruining society by change people language, separate gender and sex do you think didn't have chaos on society? Look at women sports, how many women lose their opportunity, lose their scholarship, maybe lose their life in combat sports later because of that. Rape in woman bathroom, women shelter, women prison because of that. Indoctrinated 3 years old toddler, preaching mental illness ideology in school curriculum, even worse start gender change treatment to 4 years old! It's that freedom for you?
You are using edge-cases to condemn an entire community. By and large, the LGBTQ community asks only to be treated with dignity and respect. The whole "indoctrination" issue is a dog-whistle to enrage the right... The idea that simply knowing that LGBTQ people exist and they are entitled to exist and live the way that choose is not going to inspire people to become LGBTQ (where they were not already) is absurd.
I don't believe anyone (who knows what they are talking about) is going to encourage a 3-year old to be trans/gay or anything else.... that would be wrong. The small number if incidences (that are likely over-blown) are magnified, because they are sensational headlines and are miniscule compared to the majority.
Trans-gender women in women's sport is problematic and worthy of debate/study.
What you call "ruining society" is simply equal rights and dignity and respect for LGBTQ people... If you are so uncomfortable with that, that is your hang-up. Other people are not obligated to change the way they live, because it makes you uncomfortable.
edge case? I can show you multiple proof of that stupid.
There many video online, teacher indoctrinate 3 and 4 years old already
Trans women in women sports you only say problematic and Worth debate? Wow such compassion you showed there. See all you guys always show no concern and compassion towards others, that's why you have evil heart and only care about your BS unscientific agenda
Oh, I'm sure you can find all sorts of videos of stupid and ill conceived incidents... Some of them might even be truthful. That is no way is proof of anything other than it happens. A bunch of online videos about a community of millions of people around the world is proof of very little. I can show you LOTS of videos of white guys in ultra-right wing nationalist organizations. That does not mean that all white guys are hard-core racists.
I have compassion for both sides of the sport issue. It is absolutely wrong for a someone to transition to woman, and be competing in college athletics a week later. It is also tragic to exclude a trans woman, who simply wants to participate, in a setting where there is little at stake, like a minor-hockey league.
Trans people are just people... Some may be bad or unbalanced, but so are a LOT of people. Look at you.... You hate millions of people you've never met, just for what they are.
Note: at this point, I conceded a bit on the sports issue, because I don't know enough to defend the issue, and I was hoping if he saw me concede a little, it would open his mid a little. It seemed like he had conceded not not hating all trans people, only "the activists". I didn't want to push him to complete stonewalling.
who say trans people are not people? Are idiot or something?
But promoting Lie to them like trans women are women not do any good for them and everybody dip shit
You're getting pretty abusive... entirely unnecessary.
"But promoting Lie to them like trans women are women not do any good for them"
Freedom = People are able to be what they want, live the way they want and call themselves whatever they want; provided they cause no harm to anyone else or infringe on anyone else's rights.
Cause no harm?? If you keep your sexuality to your pants and your mental illness ideology to your community only, you can fuck as many butthole as you want and collect any kind of std, we don't care. You guys can jump of off bridge we don't even care a bit. BUT stop ruining society by change people language, separate gender and sex do you think didn't have chaos on society? Look at women sports, how many women lose their opportunity, lose their scholarship, maybe lose their life in combat sports later because of that. Rape in woman bathroom, women shelter, women prison because of that. Indoctrinated 3 years old toddler, preaching mental illness ideology in school curriculum, even worse start gender change treatment to 4 years old! And you say you guys just want normal life and cause no harm? Stop using victim card idiot
"If you keep your sexuality to your pants and your mental illness ideology to your community only"
Your idea of LGTBQ people keeping their "sexuality in [their] pants", is they should all go back into the closet and hide who they are... that is not freedom or dignity and respect.
"stop ruining society by change people language"
Society changes... as it always has... If it did not we would still have white's only bathrooms.
"Look at women sports, how many women lose their opportunity, lose their scholarship..."
Now you're just going around in circles... I've already conceded the sports as an issue.
"Rape in woman bathroom, women shelter, women prison"
I ignored this the first time you said it, because it is utter bullshit. Aside from (possibly) a small (statistically insignificant) number of cases, there is no evidence that this is happening and you cannot find any (credible) evidence that it does. I bet you can't find even one (memes don't count). If you think that trans-women want to go rape girls in the women's bathrooms, you really, REALLY don't understand trans people.
The reality is trans people are several orders of magnitude more likely to be victims of sexual assault than anyone else.
"3 years old toddler, preaching mental illness ideology in school curriculum, even worse start gender change treatment to 4 years old!"
I challenge you to find any real credible evidence this is actually happening to any meaningful extent... (again, memes are meaningless).
"And you say you guys just want normal life and cause no harm? Stop using victim card idiot"
Again with the names... and, as an aside (for clarity), I am not LGBTQ. I just believe they deserve the same respect, consideration and opportunities as anyone else. Though I have a niece who's engaged to a trans man... He's the nicest, most contentious guy in the world; and to look at him, you'd never know.
sorry I replied many people I already told you that.
I don't say all trans like that, what I'm against is trans activist. But transgender still a mental illness
It's not a mental illness... It's a classified as a disorder (an important distinction); that is not chosen and completely unchangeable. Both of my children are diagnosed ADHD (also a disorder). You think they are not entitled to the same dignity and respect? People with disabilities are not normal, but we have wheel chair ramps everywhere.
If I take you at your word; that only the activists are the problem (and you're not just prejudiced)... I don't always agree with them either, but you have to acknowledge where they come from. The LGBTQ community has been subject to life-long prejudice and persecution. Every time someone tells them that they are "mentally ill" or refuses to use their preferred pronouns, it's like slapping someone with a sunburn. In the last few years have seen big swings in sentiment and the angry segment of the community are grabbing for everything they can get. That does not make them ineligible for empathy.
Mental disorder= mental illness
No matter how many liter hormones therapy you injected, no matter how many procedures you have, how many rainbow color in your hair and nails, how painful painful the process is, even they cut their own penis, trans women are NOT REAL women.
There is no scientific method to back up unlimited gender that using made up word, because they believe gender is social construct. If you FEEL you're a cactus, doesn't mean you're REAL cactus, let alone to force other to believe and call you a cactus. This behavior can be tolerated on kids and toddler but in adult its called delusional = sign of mental illness (separation of reality). Your feelings, behavior or ideology doesn't determine your gender, your sex chromosomes does. Your poor understanding of biology make you believe such BS ideology.
There is a distinction between the two, but what you call it is irrelevant. It is real and permanent. Trans women don't really care whether you consider them real or not. They just want to be happy with who they see in the mirror. And they don't want a penis and tentacles any more than you would want a pair of boobs, or to have a third arm.
ll they want just want to be happy? Hahaha
Not to mention what I share above
What you mean by "it's real and permanent"?
"There is no scientific method to back up unlimited gender that using made up word, because they believe gender is social construct."
Gender is both biological and a personal identity (based on how your brain is wired). Sometimes the two do not match. This is scientifically supported and understood. The whole "social construct" argument is facetious and ill-conceived... that only leads to pointless arguments with no resolution.
"If you FEEL you're a cactus, doesn't mean you're REAL cactus, let alone to force other to believe and call you a cactus."
That's a straw-man argument, that doesn't serve either side of the debate.
"This behavior can be tolerated on kids and toddler but in adult its called delusional = sign of mental illness (separation of reality). Your feelings, behavior or ideology doesn't determine your gender, your sex chromosomes does."
Unless you're some sort of mental health professional or neuroscientist you are totally unqualified to make that judgment... There are certainly experts on both sides of the issue and more research needed on both sides. That does not justify the persecution of trans people and their ability to make choices about their own body.
Sex = gender always been biological. Word sex and gender been used interchangeably in MULTIPLE science papers & branches. Even FDA use those 2 words interchangeably in their research papers and drugs prescription.
Your social role, your behavior, your feelings, your ideology Doesn't determine your gender, your sex chromosomes does. Gender it's about biology not sociology or psychology, your gender are determined even from zygote phase. Your poor understanding of biology make you believe such BS ideology
A screen-shot of one news article? No link? I don't believe it is real. And as I said before... the idea that you can
"indoctrinate" someone into (truly) being LGBTQ is absured.
"Your poor understanding of biology make you believe such BS ideology"
I totally understand the biology, just fine... You refuse to understand the phycology/neurology. Just because you are biologically male/female does not guarantee that your phycological understanding of your gender matches.
You can think it's "delusional" all you want, but you cannot change it any more than you can change someone's sexual orientation. The causes, the psychology of it, the biology... in practical terms; they all don't matter. Trans people exist, they have a right to exist in the manner of their choosing, they have a right to dignity and respect. You don't have to embrace and celebrate their choices (that is your right), but no one has the right to persecute or attack them for who and what they are.
AH-HA!.... I found your news article... The Liberty Daily? Really? A hard-right (so-called) news site? The entire basis of the article is some tweet, from some hard-left TickTok handle, with no credible source or backup what-so-ever... That article is garbage. It's obviously fake.
sexual orientation is not gender idiot
More verbal abuse...
I never said it is... I said, LIKE... SIMILAR TO... sexual orientation, you cannot change someone's psychological sense of their gender.
Allow me to quote, from the article I linked earlier (since it's highly unlikely you read it):
"Psychological attempts to force a transgender person to be cisgender (sometimes referred to as gender identity conversion efforts or so-called “gender identity conversion therapy”) are considered unethical."
Yes because your low understanding of biology and you seems confused between gender and sexual orientation
Did you know one of the drug they use in puberty blockers for children is Lupron, it's used for chemical castrate sex offender?
"Yes because your low understanding of biology and you seems confused between gender and sexual orientation"
I don't know if you're misunderstanding what I'm saying because English isn't your first language, or if you're deliberately ignoring the things I say that violate your internal narrative. I've addressed the biology MULTIPLE times. What you don't get (or refuse to accept) is that gender is more than just XY/XX chromosomes. It is a person's psychological sense of their gender, which has to do with how the person's brain is wired at birth. Both the medical and phycological communities accept and understand this. Do you think you're smarter than the doctors?
If a person's psychological sense of their gender differs from their chromosomes, the fact that they are biologically male, or female, makes absolutely no difference to that person's sense of self. To some one who is truly gender dysmorphic (differentiating from someone who, through some other psychiatric condition, has a skewed sense of gender), the biological configuration of their chromosomes is irrelevant to how they are entitled to choose to live their lives.
"Did you know one of the drug they use in puberty blockers for children is Lupron, it's used for chemical castrate sex offender?"
Yes..... And? Did you know it's also used to treat cancer, endometriosis and uterine fibroids? Unless you are a medical professional or pharmacist, you are totally unqualified to comment on the proper and ethical use of a medication.
Did you know that is extremely traumatic and damaging to force a trans person to go through puberty? By the time someone reaches puberty, when their sense of gender is firmly established, and the person has gone through all the medical and phycological diagnosis, counseling. Not allowing that person to transition and forcing them to go through puberty is cruel and inhuman.
It really feels like you've done no research on this what-so-ever... Like, your total knowledge on the topic comes from right-wing news media headlines.
First you seems confused between gender and sexual orientation
"I totally understand the biology, just fine... You refuse to understand the phycology/neurology. Just because you are biologically male/female does not guarantee that your phycological understanding of your gender matches."
Second this the proof you have lack understanding of biology your brain and psychology not determine your gender. Your sex chromosomes does.
If you have XY chromosome (male) and believe that you're a women you're delusional= sign of mental illness, furthermore force other to believe you're a woman, that's self entitled mental disorder, even worse cut your own penis to justify your ideology that's severe mental illness should go straight to psychiatric hospital. Don't be an idiot.
Did you know one of the drug they use in puberty blockers for children is Lupron, it's used for chemical castrate SEX OFFENDERS?
"Second this the proof you have lack understanding of biology your brain and psychology not determine your gender. Your sex chromosomes does."
That is absolutely false. Let me use an analogy. The chromosomes are like a light switch. In the vast majority of the time, you turn a switch on and the light turns on. Once in a while it does not. Saying that you gender is totally determined by your chromosomes is like walking into a dark room and saying the light is on, because the switch is on.
The American Medical Association supports this. The American Psychiatric Association supports this. Chromosomes are so irrelevant to Gender Dysmorphia that it isn't even mentioned. It's like you don't read anything at all. Do you believe yourself so intelligent that you are smarter than the established associations of medical and phycological health in North America (I don't have time to find the Canadian equivalents, but I'm sure they agree.... How utterly arrogant and prejudiced are you.
"Did you know one of the drug they use in puberty blockers for children is Lupron, it's used for chemical castrate SEX OFFENDERS?"
Asked and answered... You don't have any idea what you're talking about, and if you're too lazy to do the work to find out, you're pointless. Just another prejudiced person, more interested in hate than learning. If you're unwilling to learn, then you're unwilling to accept the freedom of others... which is where this whole thing started.
"Did you know one of the drug they use in puberty blockers for children is Lupron, it's used for chemical castrate SEX OFFENDERS?"
So you stop playing victim card, you guys are the one ruin child future!
Note: At this point, I was starting to get a little frustrated with him. It had become clear that English was not his first language, but it seemed like he tried to make reasoned and intelligent arguments before this. At this point he just stopped trying and fixated on Lupron.
I should not be doing YOUR work for you...
"Did you know one of the drug they use in puberty blockers for children is Lupron, it's used for chemical castrate SEX OFFENDERS?"
"The medications pause puberty and prevent unwanted changes to teenagers’ bodies, such as periods in transgender boys or the deepening of the voice in transgender girls. The puberty blockers are intended to give young people more time to decide what to do next. At any point, a transgender teenager can stop taking puberty blockers and will continue to go through the puberty of their sex assigned at birth."
I don't know what you think Lupron does, but I can assure you, you are wrong.
you can search it and prove to me that Lupron been use to sex offender and using to trans kid medication or not. If you don't know what you're talking about please shut up. It's embarrassing
"you can search it and prove to me that Lupron been use to sex offender and using to trans kid medication or not"
I never said it was not... I did the reading. You've missed the point. Just because it is used for chemical castration does not make it dangerous or harmful when used to delay puberty. Do you even know what chemical castration is?
"Chemical castration is castration via anaphrodisiac drugs, whether to reduce libido and sexual activity, to treat cancer, or otherwise. Unlike surgical castration, where the gonads are removed through an incision in the body, chemical castration does not remove organs, nor is it a form of sterilization. Chemical castration is generally considered reversible when treatment is discontinued..."
Everything you had said (and apparently everything you know) about trans people comes from right-wing propaganda and memes. If you're going to hate someone, at least know something real about it.
you doing chemical castration on a healthy child body is that the right thing to do? How stupid. Not only you idiot you guys are evil bitch, no wonder people hate you. I hope you will never a child
A safe hormone treatment given in a therapeutic dosage (likely much lower than given to sex offenders) under medical supervision, to generate a temporary and reversible outcome... Yeah, that's TOTALLY EVIL...
Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about. You wrap yourself up in sensational and bullshit meme's and think you know something. You ignore the science and facts, just to preserve your prejudices. People like you, unwilling to learn anything that conflicts with your internal narrative, are a cancer on society.
safe hormones? Hahaha
People like you deserve to be punish by chemical castration so you can't reproduce
Note: It was becoming clear by now that it wasn't clear that the guy could even comprehend what I was saying, or fully understood what he was saying. I think (until this point) I may have overestimated his English skills; or underestimated his obstinance. This was not the person I'd hoped to debate with.
LOL, whatever dude... You know anyone taking the birth control pill? Those are hormone pills... HAhhah...
Also... at (nearly) 51 years old, and with two kids, I have no interest in further reproduction, but good to know you care... LOL.
but is it act like Lupron? On healthy child body with no medical emergency. What an idiot. Please don't reproduce, you are idiot and evil enough to be extinct
OMG, you're so ignorant. You don't even read the things I write. It's like yelling into the void.
you comparing chemical castration drugs like Lipton to birth control, it's how stupid you're.
You said, "safe hormones? Hahaha", as if there are no save medical uses for hormone treatments... totally false (using the birth control as an example).
You insist that Lipton is dangerous and harmfully to a child. When used appropriately, that is totally false. You are not a pharmacist. You are not a medical professional. You do not read any of the articles I linked. You've provided no evidence or sources to contradict. You have NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Just because you think it and some bullshit memes say it, does not make it so.
safe hormones? Who said that idiot. Lipton? Omg you're not only evil but also an idiot
Now you're just repeating yourself, with a dash of verbal abuse, adding nothing to the debate. This is the best you can do? How disappointing,
And I'm beginning to think that your English comprehension skills are not good enough, because some of your responses don't make any sense; in relation to what I've said.
it Lupron idiot, I just bait you to see how you have no clue what you're talking about
Whatever dude... There's no point in talking to you.
No point talking to idiot pedo too. I hope you never reproduce
This back-and-forth took place over the course of (about) a week. Based on the times that he would respond, my best guess is he is Eastern European. He would comment and respond in the early mornings, and occasional in the evening... never during the day (corresponding to evenings and occasional mornings for him). It's (likely) partially my fault. I did not pick the post to cast my lure into carefully enough. The English in the original meme is not good (which many commenters jumped on). Looking into his profile (several days into the debate) the only thing he had ever posted was a small number of anti-trans memes. I was hoping to lure in some American Freedom guy from the states, with some other interests besides hating trans people... It depended on some luck, and it didn't work out.
He did back-off somewhat, when I commented on his abusive language, which I will give him a little credit for (the smallest amount). His frustration with me always led him back to it, and given his limited language skills and insufficient intellectual ability, I'm not that upset about it.
Over the course of the debate, I did some reading (as you do), and I learned a couple things; which perhaps made the exorcise worth doing. Probably not for the amount of effort that went into it, however.
I didn't have high hopes and the outcome didn't do anything to elevate my faith in humanity... but as an optimist, I believe no effort is wasted.
There is one point that I failed to make (I wasn't certain in the moment), and I regret not making it...
furthermore force other to believe you're a woman, that's self entitled mental disorder, even worse cut your own penis to justify your ideology that's severe mental illness should go straight to psychiatric hospital.
This is illegal in Canada. So much-so, that it is even illegal to take a Canadian to another country to seek therapy for being transgender. I knew the law prohibiting conversion therapy for homosexuality existed, but I didn't know for certain if it applies to transgender. Turns out "conversion therapy" covers any sort of therapy intended to "cure" people for being LGBTQ.
I read The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science of Gender-Bending and Transsexualism by J. Michael Bailey just as this site first went down. I found the book even handed, sane, clear, and as kind as possible while maintaining objectivity. Of course, it's controversial, and the author has been vilified.
To boil it down, Bailey says that there are two types of biologically male transsexual. The first type begins as little boys, almost all of whom are destined to be gay, who in early childhood insist that they are really girls. Most of them grow out of this assertion before puberty, but a small number do not. This group is miserable being male, and transition surgery might be their best shot at happiness, especially if they can transition fairly young. They tend to be the transsexuals who can pull of the transition most convincingly, Their preferred sexual partners are men, and a surprising number work as call girls.
The second type are men who are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves being women. After puberty, they often masturbate wearing women's clothing, They tend to be straight men, and if they transition, their preferred sexual partners remain women. No one remembers them in early childhood insisting that they were really girls, although they might make that claim. They tend to transition later in life, and they don't usually make convincing women.
Transsexualism is still vilified amongst so much of society, I suspect it's very difficult for people on the spectrum of trans to really have a good understanding of themselves. I would offer no criticism or blame for anyone who struggles with themselves or changes their mind at any point.
Bailey's two types of transsexuals seems a reasonable description for most. I feel like there should be more than just these two types (real life is seldom so easily defined). The two he suggests seem a fairly coarse classification. I am no expert, and I don't know if Bailey has the qualifications to be authoritative. I can neither suggest better nor offer critique of what he offers.
At the same time, I also feel like classifying trans people is an unnecessary exercise (beyond perhaps developing an academic understanding). As soon as you start defining "boxes" for people, it becomes a tool to persecute the people that don't fit into one of the boxes; and people will start applying value judgments for certain boxes. It becomes a slippery slope to discrimination.
I have always been of the opinion that people should be free to live their lives in whatever manner they choose (provided they cause no harm to others), and society should treat people with dignity and respect; regardless of personal belief about someone's choices.
Bailey is a professor at Northwestern. He strikes me as being a qualified academic expert on the subject, which I admit is different from a lived expert on the subject. I found his book a good read, and I recommend it to those who are interested.
He sounds like a great guy.