posted 03-23-2001 11:15            

There was actually an old religious movement made up of "gnostics," or people who claimed to be in the know with the Almighty. I believe the use of the term "agnostic" started in direct retaliation to that movement; although, it is entirely possible that I am wrong.

In either case, J1mb0 is correct in his definition. Unfortunately today's usage of the word is basically what bitchgoddess said, one who has rejected organized religion.

Bah, people and their "made-up" definitions of words.

posted 03-25-2001 00:39            

Paganism is also the word which Christians in the time period to which I was referring used to define anyone who was not a Christian. Wicca wasn't even around back then, and has no bearing. The specific society in which handfasting was created has been disputed, but it was adopted by Christians at a much later date than the founding of Christianity, and called marriage.

I was very interested in the subject a few years ago and did a bit of research. I have no idea what I did with any of it, and my memory isn't as good as it used to be, so specifics are lost to me.

Oh, and by the way, before I decided that organized religion sucks I was a Baptist, talk about a turnaround.

posted 03-25-2001 05:19           

I assume you are talking about the celtic religons of pre germanic settlement in britain. There isn't enough evidence to pronounce this as a recorded religon as far back as there is for others, such as hinduism, the egyptian panthenon, etc. If you allow for obvious time taken for 'paganism' to develop, you have to do the same for the more advanced religons of north africa, the fertile crescent and asia. So for example, whilst Egyptian religon can be shown to have existed 10,000 years ago, it was allready in a fairly advanced stage by that time, so it's likely that it had been developing for some time.

I'm not going to bother talking about prehistoric, tribal religons, as these are quite obviously the earliest form of religon, however, they're not recorded.

And bitchgoddes, marriage is hardly unique to any religon. The Jews, who had little to no contact with the celts had marriage (I opened a bible to leviticus, which has so little to do with christianity, I figure it's as fair as I can get without buying a Torah)
And according to dictionary.com, the definition of agnostic is:
One who believes that there can be no proof of the existence of God but does not deny the possibility that God exists.

cease changing the english language in such major, nonsensical ways.

posted 03-25-2001 11:32            

quote:

---

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
Date: 1869
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
- ag·nos·ti·cism /-t&-"si-z&m/ noun

---

posted 03-25-2001 18:37            

I also did not say that my definition of the word 'agnostic' was the only one, simply that it has been used to label people with the same belief system as mine. I have not changed the meaning of anything, it has been changed over the last several years. Whether the dictionary lists it or not is irrelevant. the dictionary also defines the words 'irregardless' and 'orientate'. Does that automatically give these words credence?

posted 03-25-2001 19:34            

Anyway, there was a months-long holy war about the definition of the word pagan. Of course those who thought themselves pagan were outraged by the "not a christian, hindu, or muslim" definition, but they could never agree on a substitute.

Those were the days....

Oh, and don't get pissed and leave, bitchgodess, I like reading your posts. Next time someone snipes you unfairly I'll snipe them.

posted 03-25-2001 20:17            

I am in fact an agnostic, I do believe in God. There are some agnostics who believe in a different God than I do, there are also some who don't know if there is a God. We do however, all agree that a church can't tell us how to beieve. This puts us all under the umbrella of agnosticism. We do not all have to believe the same thing, this is why we don't go to church, because dictating faith to others is abhorrent to us. If this is the case, why would one definition be true to all agnostics?

posted 03-25-2001 20:34            

I've told people before that I'm agnostic. Normally its met with the response "What the hell does that mean."

Other times, I'm met with indignation. Certain people (normally catholics) will look at me and say "Thats just a cowards way of saying they dont want to decide anything. Now, who's your one true savior?"

I have no idea what the hell that means. Nor do I WANT to know. I'm perfectly happy sitting here not deciding anything, thank you.

Oh God, I'm going to hell, aren't I?

-Chris

posted 03-25-2001 20:51            

After a couple of minutes of explanation that you're an "agnostic" rather than an "atheist" because you don't see the validity - or lack thereof - of their belief system as even being relevant, they generally don't know quite wtf to say to you anymore.

-------

edited to note the reason I consider the validity of Christianity or any other religion as irrelevant:

1. Yahweh, as described in the Bible, is a fucking jerk.
2. His reality would in no way change my opinion of #1 above.
3. Yahweh, as described in the Bible, is omniscient.
4. I could therefore never pass as a "true worshipper" of Yahweh, whether I "believed" in his existence or not.

There ya go: Yahweh is utterly irrelevant to my existence on earth. Even if he exists. Not, of course, that I think he does - but that's not the point. The irrelevance is the point.

If one chooses to take the opposite tack, and talk about a God that rewards "being good" rather than empty self-abasement:

1. That hypothetical God wouldn't hold it against you if you didn't worship him, as long as you did your best to live a good life
2. I am doing my best to live a good life

And once again, we have shown irrelevance.

posted 03-26-2001 01:00            

My total belief structure is based on the fact that I believe in God. I don't know if he sent anyone to earth to save me, but I'm pretty sure God exists. I don't think that he really cares whether or not I go to church, or swear, or occasionally cheat on my taxes (if you work for the IRS, I don't cheat on my taxes, but if I did he wouldn't really care). As long as I do what I think is right as often as I can, love my family, and don't do anything to hurt other people, I should end up in a pretty decent place when I die. This of course is what I believe, I could be wrong, and if I am, boy, that'll suck.

posted 03-26-2001 01:08            

After they got pressured out of church for not donating the required 15% (and these were LUTHERANS!) they got even wiser.

"Christopher," they always said, "The Bible is a book of history. Nothing else."

My dad used to invite the Jehova's witnesses into the kitchen, set them down, and debate with them until they gave up (lost) and left. From then on when I would answer the door and they were there, they would always ask "Is your mother home? No... No... we dont need to wake up your father..."

posted 03-26-2001 01:47            

A month or two ago a kindly old lady jehovah's witness came to my house (yep, they are in Japan too) and wanted to chat, and I had just read that apparently there are really only two documents (the Elder and Younger Eddas) that detail the germanic-norse religion predating christianity as the defacto state religion of Europe because the christian missionaries had so zealously wiped out every trace of the earlier religion. (whew) Apparently, Iceland was teh last country converted, and so these two documents survived. The niebelung myth and beowulf and so on are other traces that didn't get wiped out.
So we had a merry little conversation about why christians would want to do that. Come to think of it, kind of like the (fucking lowlife pathetic scumsucking lower-than-dirt) Taliban.

posted 03-26-2001 14:59         

Ciao!

Puzzling

-blip-