posted 09-18-2001 01:46            

of course common sense tells you that the market is going to drop after a catstraphy like that. after pearl harbor was bombed the market dropped almost 6% while now it almost dropped 7%. the difference between then and now is that back then the dow was maybe only at 5,000 or 6,000 so taking a 6% loss is going to be less then taking one at 9,000 to 10,000.

what you failed to mention is that 5 years after Pearl Harbor the dow went up 46%. now i dont know about you but if a stock broker could give me 46% on my money i would let him fuck me in the ass no questions ask.

also now is the time to wait a little before you buy but DONT sell; give the market a month or so to find out if their is still more drop left in it and also see how the up coming war effects it. What you are going to want to invest in now is companies that have been around for a while like Proctor and Gamble, Coke, and GE. All solid stocks and have been around for a hell of a long time; shit GE's revenue is higher than a lot of 3rd world countries gross domestic product. Also maybe some companies that manufactor war products.

posted 09-18-2001 02:11            

Greed is what got us in to this mess. Financial speculation is not what we should be focusing on right now. This shows the weakness they were attacking when they flew the planes into the WTC in the first place.

posted 09-18-2001 02:55            

um no what got us into this mess was some hopped up crazy militants that decided that they hate america and what we stand for. also finding the good in a shit sammich is what has made this country great. and shit you asked about a financial situation so i gave you a financial answer

i thank my fucking stars that the founding fathers of the USA did not take the approach to their liberties as you do. we would still be pissing and moaning over the tax on some tea. i just want you to remember that the liberties you have and use most likely without thinking have been given to you by blood and sacrifice by the people before you, and if you are not willing to make sure that they are there for the people after you then maybe you need to see how it is without them. i have a pretty good fucking idea how that is; when i was in the army cause one of their mottos is "you provide liberties to the rest of the country but they are not provided to you." and that shit is true trust me. just to give you an idea what i mean, in a military court of law you are guilty till proven innocent.

please take your head out of your ass so you can see clearly.

posted 09-18-2001 04:07         

quote:

---

Originally posted by LonMabonJovi:
"your masturbatory patriotic chest thumping that your fat old ass couldn't possibly back up."

---

Subtle yet firm.
As for chest thumping. Yes, there are those of us who thump our chest, get in the ditches and do the moral and ethical dirty work. Then there are those who feel more comfortable high upon their moral ivory tower illustrating why we have all run amok. As a moral ditch digger I thank you for bringing our transgressions to bear.

It's OK long dong, we in the moral ditches will carry you, We have been carrying you for years. We provide you the RIGHT to sit upon your tower. You are welcome.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jumper42:
[/B]
1)
"I just want you to remember that the liberties you have and use most likely without thinking have been given to you by blood and sacrifice by the people before you"

2)
"When I was in the army cause one of their mottos is "you provide liberties to the rest of the country but they are not provided to you." and that shit is true trust me.
[/B]

---

Point 1) Do you UNDERSTAND this long dong? Your freedoms have been provided by US (the moral ditch diggers). Again, you are welcome.

Point 2) Long dong, have you EVER had your rights taken away? When you are in the service you give up a lot of personal rights that we all take for granted. When you get your rights back, it becomes very clear that you took them for granted. I suggest that you have NO FUCKING CLUE what you are talking about with respect to rights.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LonMabonJovi:

Greed is what got us in to this mess. Financial speculation is not what we should be focusing on right now.

---

Inane.
You obviously have no holdings in the market. Long dong, get a clue this is a capitalist society.

IN SUMMARY:

It's ok to stand on the sideline and yell fowl!
But please stay the hell out of the way.
The moral ditch diggers have work to do.

posted 09-18-2001 04:58            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fenomas:
Not to jump back to topic drift phase 2, but why _did_ clme edit jumper's post a while ago? What was in it? Clme?

---

posted 09-18-2001 05:25            

quote:

---

LonMabonJovi: "...your masturbatory patriotic chest thumping that your fat old ass couldn't possibly back up."

Marcel: Subtle yet firm.

---

ROFL! Marcel may not be completely hopeless! Of course, I had to skip the rest of his inane post, since, as Jimbo indicates, it's pointless and devisive to expose yourself to views that aren't like your own.

Or does that just apply to those that aren't held by the presumed majority, and espoused by The State, Heir Jimbo?

We should not WANT a unified America. It is our differrences that make us strong. When one party or spirit controls the government, bad things happen, and bad laws get written - especially when the unity is driven by fear. Think about the Red Scare, the Salem witch hunts. When you have a clear majority united, or even just enough people screaming loudly for scalps, it is never good.

Perhapse we wouldn't have won WW2 w/o that sort of nationalistic ferver- but we wouldn't have had to have faced Germany if they weren't just as united, and we should all reflect on what BOTH sides did to desenters and those whose race made them not part of the program.

Terrorism should not go un-answered, just like any other crime. But it should not cause us to put a flag or a fight above what this country was supposed to represent to the world. Are we free and brave, or a pack of rage-crazed facists?

posted 09-18-2001 07:10         

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:
[B]We should not WANT a unified America.
[B]

---

A pity that.
I find it quite refreshing.

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:
[B]When you have a clear majority united, or even just enough people screaming loudly for scalps, it is never good.[B]

---

Of course, what were we thinking?

-It was awfully rude of us to be angered at Japan after Pearl Harbor.
-We were completely over reacting to want Hitler dead.
-We are complete savages to want terrorist operators to be "scalped".

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:
[B]Perhaps we wouldn't have won WW2 w/o that sort of nationalistic fervor.
[B]

---

Joshy, we didn't win the war with nationalistic fervor.
We won WW2 by spilling massive amounts of American and other nations blood.
These were the rage-crazed fascist "unified" lemmings as described in your post.
A pity they weren't privy to your enlightened viewpoint, could have saved a lot of lives.
Of course you would live under German rule, but that’s beside the point.

posted 09-18-2001 08:25            

quote:

---

marcel: Joshy, we didn't win the war with nationalistic fervor.
We won WW2 by spilling massive amounts of American and other nations blood.

---

So, we didn't spill massive amounts of blood in Viet Nam? We lost that war because we were divided. Just like the Brits lost our revolutionary war because they were divided. Just like the Soviets could not prevail.

I never said that our outrage at what happened last week, or after Perl Harbor wasn't just, I said that lashing out blindly in that rage is not just. Patriotic Americans are assaulting foreign cabbies in their taxies, threatening Muslim pre-schools, and driving their Mustangs into mosques! They did the same crap to Japanese-Americans during WW2, and eventually rounded them up into concentration camps.

Christ, go rent Return of the Jedi - when you give in to your hate, you cross over to the dark side, you become the evil one- you become what you despise. It can be useful in securing short-term objectives, but that doesn't make it any less hypocritical or just plain WRONG. It poisons us.

And when our leaders are caught up in that red haze, though it may be refreshing to see them display an honest emotion for once, it is NOT conducive to good decision making. I am greatly relieved that we are looking to a long-term, ground-invasion solution, if only because it will require more thought and planning than another worthless missle strike.

I don't want the people who organized these hyjackings to continue living on the same planet as the people I love (fighting back against our occupational forces is one thing, murdering our grandmothers is another), but irradicating them is just the treatment of a symptom.

posted 09-18-2001 08:59            

I joined the Navy in 87 on a 3 yr active/ 3 year active reserve enlistment. Escorted tankers thru the gulf. Guarded our ship from a .50 cal mount surrounded by sandbags. Put in a lot of 20-22 hour days for very little money. Risked my life to protect "our interests". Processed out in November of 90, just before the war started.

And I almost went back in to be with my friends on the ship. The reserves were and are a joke. To sum this up, you haven't carried SHIT of mine. Fuck your moral ditch digging analogy, it doesn't apply here. I have carried my own load and have fought for the right make up my own mind. Fuck you for even implying I haven't earned the right to make up my own mind.

The moral and ethical dirty work we have been doing abroad is not something I am proud of as an American. WWII was entered and fought with justification. Yet today there is much evidence that FDR let Pearl Harbor get hit with it's pants down to galvanize American resolve.

The moral highground that made WWII a good war- we were fighting the oppressive regime of a foriegn dictator. The gov't tries it's best to put a pretty face on us at home, but people from abroad who haven't towed the line see us the same way. An oppressive foriegn dictator.

Inane? Yes, I suppose the moral vacuum created by the pursuit of the allmighty dollar could be seen as such.

Please pull your head out of your ass and understand that when we create even more holy warriors with nothing to lose, we reap what we sow. ObL and the radical muslims are bona-fide nut jobs. What they did was horrifically wrong. What I am calling for is extreme caution, not blind patriotism.

posted 09-18-2001 09:31         

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:
Patriotic Americans are assaulting foreign cabbies in their taxies, threatening Muslim pre-schools, and driving their Mustangs into mosques!.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:

They did the same crap to Japanese-Americans during WW2, and eventually rounded them up into concentration camps.

---

Thanks for the history lesson; what's your point?

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:

Christ, go rent Return of the Jedi - when you give in to your hate, you cross over to the dark side, you become the evil one- you become what you despise.

---

Yea, that will explain it all, thanks for the advice. I’ll stop on the way home and pick it up. LOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:

I am greatly relieved that we are looking to a long-term, ground-invasion solution,

---

Warmonger.
A long term, ground-invasion solution will be VERY costly in American and NATO lives.

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:

The cancer that produces these people is OUR foreign policy

---

posted 09-18-2001 10:23         

quote:

---

Originally posted by LonMabonJovi:
Fuck you for even implying I haven't earned the right to make up my own mind.

---

Nobody questioned your RIGHT of opinion, or decision-making process. I was attempting to illustrate the fact that our freedoms are precious and hard earned.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LonMabonJovi:

"Inane? Yes, I suppose the moral vacuum created by the pursuit of the almighty dollar could be seen as such."
"But people from abroad who haven't towed the line see us the same way. An oppressive foreign dictator."

---

Some may consider it "the land of opportunity", "free enterprise". We have such a oppressive image that the waiting lines for legal immigration into this country
are outrageously long, why is that? Surely there are people who WISH to come live in this oppressive regime? hmmmm.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LonMabonJovi:

Please pull your head out of your ass and understand that when we create even more holy warriors with nothing to lose.

---

All right long dong, you be a nice guy and TALK to the terrorist factions, give them what they want, compromise. See you when you get back. Not.

It's very easy to be talked into terrorism when your family is starving and you live in a clay hut and someone starts throwing money around promising you that your family will be provided for. Right, not much to loose.
Kind of sounds like Mexico. Some Mexicans sneak into the USA to WORK, not to blow it up.

posted 09-18-2001 11:08            

quote:

---

Originally posted by LonMabonJovi:
I guess it isn't surprising, the same thing happens to the market when the unemployment rate gets too low. Can't make any money if everyone is working! It's bad for business.

---

Low unemployment doesn't mean everybody's working, it means everybody that's trying to work has a job.

People on Welfare are not included in "unemployed" statistics.

Extremely low unemployment rates are seen as a hindrance to business growth because it means businesses have to really start scraping the barrel HARD in order to find any new personnel.

::shrug::

posted 09-18-2001 11:21            

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:
Or does that just apply to those that aren't held by the presumed majority, and espoused by The State, Heir Jimbo?

---

"Heir" (sic) Jimbo. Nice. Very nice. Re-read this thread and ask yourself "what one person actually discussed the topic with me rationally?"

I'm a rabid libertarian; you can talk about pussy farts and tell Little Sambo jokes for all I care. I might decide you're missing a couple of vital chromosomes, but far be it from me to try to keep you from advertising it.

Btw, the </i> tag goes AFTER the <i> tag.

posted 09-18-2001 12:33            

Ahhh, shit. Just re-read the whole thread again from the beginning. I misstook your second post to be a "take your unamerican devisive blather elsewhere" dismissal, but on a third pass I see that it's not so, you were just faulting my comparison, which was pretty sloppily done. Sorry.

posted 09-18-2001 15:46            

quote:

---

Originally posted by marcel:
Does this mean we are done?

---

Yes, we are done. As long as you can all admit thatI was right and you were all very, very wrong.

Oh wait, I was not involved in the "debate."

posted 09-18-2001 16:16            

Anyone who thinks another Vietnam can't happen 'because of technology' is severely deluding themselves. Guerilla warfare has troubled large and powerful countries such as France (vietnam), Britain + USSR (afghanistan) Australia and Papua New Guinea (Bougainville). Sooner or later, the patriotism runs out and these foreign trips want to be forgotten about. Bin Laden has weapons just as advanced as the US, money from oil-rich backers and religious people (which is undoubtedly the most dangerous). Regarding them as a bunch of 'ragheads' and flying bigger flags will not do the US any good if it goes on foot. If america spent as much time on its foreign policy as it did develping son of star wars, I'm positive something as unresolvable as this would not have occurred.

Don't want to sound xenophobic, just worry that jingoism may have got the better of some people.

posted 09-18-2001 16:21           

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshy:
Christ, go rent Return of the Jedi - when you give in to your hate, you cross over to the dark side, you become the evil one- you become what you despise. It can be useful in securing short-term objectives, but that doesn't make it any less hypocritical or just plain WRONG. It poisons us.

---

Now go rent "Clerks" laugh your ass off at all the dick and fart jokes and then listen to their take on Jedi, partcularly the part about people understanding the risk they are taking by doing as they do.

posted 09-18-2001 17:13            

quote:

---

Originally posted by B3n:
On St Patricks day in America there are people handing out leaflets to support and fund the IRA and as he said, most of the IRA's funding comes from the US. The government knows this but has done very little to stop this.

---

So what? Individuals can fund whomever they like to fund. It's when governments back terrorists --- i.e., the now-popular catchphrase "state-sponsored" terrorism --- that's the issue at hand.

posted 09-18-2001 19:25            

Why did I edit that post and close that thread?

Well... there were several reasons for closing the thread:

1) I got numerous requests via AIM to delete that thread. However, I dont like deleting threads (except for the FC-Trolls, where I killed about 27 posts, and edited one). I also recieved two emails begging me to stop arguing in that thread...

2) Considering the nature of the thread, and the recent tradgedy, I thought that losing readers/posters because of an argument on ethics was not helping things. I had backup support in this... although it may not have been necessary if I saw the posts as what they were (emotional venting) and didn't prompt further response.

Why did I edit that post?

1) One final bought of (nothing but) namecalling snuck in before I closed it... and I was feeling evil. I apologize for that.

By the way: As was evidenced in that post, please consider that this is a message board, and people are going to disagree with you.

Also: Once a flamewar is started, I wont "take it to email".