|
Author
|
Topic: "American" and "Christian" are not the same thing
|
Jimbo
1 dr3w j00 4 p1ggy!
|
posted 09-21-2001 17:54
   
From: [HR Director]
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 12:46 PM
To: [the whole company]
Subject: God Bless America! Dr. Seuss' U-ville Every U down in Uville liked U.S. a lot,
But the Binch, who lived Far East of Uville, did not.
The Binch hated U.S! the whole U.S. way!
Now don't ask me why, for nobody can say,
It could be his turban was screwed on too tight.
Or the sun from the desert had beaten too bright
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small. But, Whatever the reason, his heart or his turban,
He stood facing Uville, the part that was urban.
"They're doing their business," he snarled from his perch.
"They're raising their families! They're going to church!
They're leading the world, and their empire is thriving,
I MUST keep the U's and S's from surviving!" Tomorrow, he knew, all the U's and the S's,
Would put on their pants and their shirts and their dresses,
They'd go to their offices, playgrounds and schools,
And abide by their U and S values and rules,
And then they'd do something he liked least of all,
Every U down in U-ville, the tall and the small,
Would stand all united, each U and each S,
And they'd sing Uville's anthem, "God bless us! God bless!"
All around their Twin Towers of Uville, they'd stand,
And their voices would drown every sound in the land. "I must stop that singing," Binch said with a smirk,
And he had an idea-an idea that might work!
The Binch stole some U airplanes in U morning hours,
And crashed them right into the Uville Twin Towers.
"They'll wake to disaster!" he snickered, so sour,
"And how can they sing when they can't find a tower?" The Binch cocked his ear as they woke from their sleeping,
All set to enjoy their U-wailing and weeping,
Instead he heard something that started quite low,
And it built up quite slow, but it started to grow-
And the Binch heard the most unpredictable thing...
And he couldn't believe it-they started to sing!
He stared down at U-ville, not trusting his eyes,
What he saw was a shocking, disgusting surprise!
Every U down in U-ville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any towers at all! He HADN'T stopped U-Ville from singing! It sung!
For down deep in the hearts of the old and the young,
Those Twin Towers were standing, called Hope and called Pride,
And you can't smash the towers we hold deep inside. So we circle the sites where our heroes did fall,
With a hand in each hand of the tall and the small,
And we mourn for our losses while knowing we'll cope,
For we still have inside that U-Pride and U-Hope.
For America means a bit more than tall towers,
It means more than wealth or political powers,
It's more than our enemies ever could guess,
So may God bless America! Bless us! God bless! |
Okay, up until recently I've been preaching (heh) tolerance for the teeming hordes of Christians blathering on and on about prayer in the aftermath of the WTC's destruction, including the president declaring a "National Prayer Day". While such prayermongering was, in fact, thoughtless at best and politically cynical at worst, protesting it seemed like nothing more than dragging yourself down to their level - the whole point being that there were more important things to discuss.But as the title to this post suggests, my patience is really starting to wear thin. This morning, I received the over-long and over-smarmy orange doggerel to the right in my company email - it had been sent to the entire (VERY large) company by the director of human resources. You would think that of all people, a fucking HR WEENIE would know better than to send some shit out that marginalizes anybody who isn't a good-ol' bible-thumpin' Christian (isn't that their entire JOB, to make sure no one is ever offended by anything?) - but no, she sends out this piece of trash insinuating that christianity is what makes us all Americans, and christianity is what makes us better than Osama Bin Laden, and in christianity we'll all pull through. God damn it, I'm not a christian. Neither were a lot of the AMERICANS who died in the WTC, or the Pentagon, or the planes that went down. Neither are a lot of the AMERICANS who are likely to fight and die for their country in Afghanistan soon in order to make sure this shit doesn't happen again. And Osama Bin Laden isn't financing and training terrorist suborganizations to fuck our shit up because we're "going to church." He's doing it because we back Israel to the hilt in ANY god damned thing that Israel decides to do - and THAT is what makes us an enemy of Islam in his (and much of the Middle East's) eyes, because goddamn it, Israel IS an enemy of Islam - and they don't put too fine a point on it. We are supposed to be above such things. We have a First Amendment that includes, among other things, provisions for freedom of religion, and for separation of Church from State. We have millions of citizens that are Islamic and Buddhist and Hindu and Wiccan and agnostic and atheist and even, Bob help us, Satanist - and THEY'RE ALL SUPPOSED TO BE EQUAL UNDER THE LAW. The reason the USA needs to fight a war right now is to send a very clear message to third world governments that if they willfully harbor terrorist organizations, THEY WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for any acts of war those organizations commit. We do not need to go to war because we're Jeebus-lubbers and they're "heathen Mohammedans" - and allowing that sort of slant to descend right now would be the worst fucking mistake we could POSSIBLY make, in terms of politics both internal and external. I'm still trying to figure out whether it's worth bitching to the HR Director or not... I have a feeling that if I do, no matter how politely I put it, she won't take it too well. ::sigh:: [This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 09-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Snag
Leaky Pen
|
posted 09-21-2001 18:04
Fuckin' right on Jimbo.
This bible thumpin', Jeebus preachin' bullshit fucking pisses me off too.
If you wanna worship your walkin' on waffles, great samurai story-tellin, paragraph teachin', waffles into thyme makin', crossified Jeebus... do it on your own fucking time and don't email me your fucking propaganda.Thank you. P.S. Chew that HR bitch OUT.
IP: Logged |
Fat Tony
unregistered
|
posted 09-21-2001 18:24
The tone of your whine makes it sound like someone put a gun to your head and made you read the E-Mail. One of the things that makes this country so great is that you have the freedom to read/listen to/watch WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU DO OR DONT WANT TO!! If I hear something on the radio that I dont agree with I simply change the station. If I see something on TV that I dont want to watch I simply turn the channel. If I get an E-Mail that I dont want to read I simply delete it. There is no need to go whining to some HR person that I can guarentee you DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT!! So quit your whining and next time just DELETE THE E-MAIL. IP: Logged |
DJ Machine
unregistered
|
posted 09-21-2001 18:50
Ok, tony, so you're saying if someone emailed you saying "Praise satan for this great day, and let him smash the fuck out of osama bin ladin blah blah" you wouldn't get upset?IP: Logged |
MightyMon
s0m30n3 s3t up us the m0n
|
posted 09-21-2001 19:05
Originally Posted by Jimbo:
quote:
Okay, up until recently I've been preaching (heh) tolerance for the teeming hordes of Christians blathering on and on about prayer in the aftermath of the WTC's destruction, including the president declaring a "National Prayer Day". While such prayermongering was, in fact, thoughtless at best and politically cynical at worst, protesting it seemed like nothing more than dragging yourself down to their level - the whole point being that there were more important things to discuss.
Get off your fucking high-horse dude. You don't like prayer? Don't do it. But bitching because other people do it --- and, OMFG, might find solace in it --- is just fucking pointless. Regardless of how you see this current situation, it's been, at the very least, troubling for many people in this country. And many people, in many religions, pray. And just because the idea of a "National Prayer Day" comes up doesn't mean it's a "Christian-Only Prayer Day". Hell, I'm not the most religious person around, but I was raised and confirmed Catholic, and these recent events have made me want to get down on my knees and pray. Why? Do I think God listens to me? Not really. But in times like this, it comforts me. And you know what, it comforts lots of people. You argue that all religions should be tolerated, but after saying that a practice of one of those said religions is "thoughtless at best and politically cynical at worst"? Make up your mind --- you either accept, tolerate, and protect all religions and their practices, or you accept none. You calling Christian prayer "thoughtless" already lowers you to the level of those who write and send e-mails like you received. *Note*
I am in no way a hard-core Bible thumper. And I agree with the rest of your post, Jimbo. This is a US vs. terrorism and terrorism-by-proxy war, not the Crusades all over again (although I've been thinking if splinter groups like bin laden's --- which are, admittedly, religious in nature --- see the upcoming conflict as their version of the Crusades --- i.e., convert or destroy the Christians. But that's just my mind searching for parallels). While I don't think the e-mail is as offensive as Jimbo does, I see his point about it promoting the Christianity vs. The Heathens standpoint, and it should not have been forwarded by an HR tool. [Forest Gump]
And that's all I've got to say about that.
[/Forest Gump] ------------------
Another thread killed by MightyMon. IP: Logged |
Captain Stiffy
unregistered
|
posted 09-21-2001 19:12
MightyMon:
We're talking about the same president who declared a "Jesus Day" in Texas. The prayer day is most certainly intended to be Christian. Congress went outside and had a big old Jesus humping prayerfest last week on the steps of the capital building, if I've heard right.Basically, our government is saying we're a Christian nation, which marginalizes those of us who aren't. And unless I'm mistaken, religious intolerance is what started this whole mess in the first place. IP: Logged |
Clme
cake fiend
|
posted 09-21-2001 19:22
1) Should NOT have been emailed by an HR person... who is one of the people who are supposed to stand the strongest on making sure ANYONE isn't offended.2) Catholic girls start too late. IP: Logged |
MightyMon
s0m30n3 s3t up us the m0n
|
posted 09-21-2001 19:25
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Stiffy:
MightyMon:
We're talking about the same president who declared a "Jesus Day" in Texas.
So what? quote:
The prayer day is most certainly intended to be Christian.
Prove it. quote:
Congress went outside and had a big old Jesus humping prayerfest last week on the steps of the capital building, if I've heard right.
Again, so what? I daresay that the members of Congress are, as a majority, Christian. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. They express their religion, as is their right. Did no one listen to the speech last night? Has no one heard of the statements issued by various governmental officials, decrying religious intolerance in the wake of these attacks? Bush called Arabs and Muslims "our friends" last night. He talked of Allah. I know he's not pushing the Christian envelope, and neither is Congress. quote:
Basically, our government is saying we're a Christian nation, which marginalizes those of us who aren't.
How exacly are we being told this, again? My impression is that we're a nation under attack by terrorists. quote:
And unless I'm mistaken, religious intolerance is what started this whole mess in the first place.
Partly mistaken. Religious differences are only a part of what started this whole mess. Osama's really super-pissed about our presence in his homeland, Saudi Arabia, as well as the US presence in the Middle East in general, and the Israel thing, and that we don't follow Allah. *UPDATE*
Bon Jovi is playing "Living on a Prayer" on TV right now as part of the nationally-televised effort to raise money for the New York and Washington relief efforts! CALL THE ACLU BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! ------------------
Another thread killed by MightyMon. IP: Logged |
Jimbo
1 dr3w j00 4 p1ggy!
|
posted 09-21-2001 19:39
quote:
Originally posted by MightyMon:
[b]Originally Posted by Jimbo:
Get off your fucking high-horse dude. You don't like prayer? Don't do it. But bitching because other people do it --- and, OMFG, might find solace in it --- is just fucking pointless.[/B]
That's not why I'm bitching at ALL. quote:
Every U down in U-ville, the tall and the small,
Would stand all united, each U and each S,
And they'd sing Uville's anthem, "God bless us! God bless!"
What I'm bitching about is not the fact that some americans are christian, but about the fact that some - a LOT - of the christians are putting out stuff like this claiming that we're UNITED in christianity, and that this in fact is why middle eastern terrorists hate us. Bin Laden and the rest couldn't give a fuck about our religion; they DO however give a fuck about the fact that we back a VERY militantly anti-Islamic nation that makes no bones about their OWN holy war. Making it a holy war on OUR side as well would be less than productive. In addition, while I don't even faintly begrudge the christians their right to prayer, or solace in prayer, or even publicly saying they GET solace in prayer, I DO object to statements that to be American is to be a faithful Christian singing "God Bless Us Every One" like we're all some kind of retarded Tiny Tim clones. Being un-Christian does NOT make me un-American, and I DON'T FUCKING APPRECIATE STATEMENTS OTHERWISE. IP: Logged |
Jimbo
1 dr3w j00 4 p1ggy!
|
posted 09-21-2001 19:48
And furthermore, I never said christian PRAYER was thoughtless - what I fucking well SAID was that government officials declaring an official "National Prayer Day" was thoughtless at best, and politically cynical at worst.Not the prayer, the crossing of boundaries of church and state and the marginalization of americans who AREN'T christian, and in quite a few cases aren't religious at ALL. IP: Logged |
Clme
cake fiend
|
posted 09-21-2001 19:57
I pledge alegiance,
To the flag,
of the United States of America, And to the Republic,
for which is stands,
One nation,
under God,
Indivisible,
For liberty and justice for all.
Actually, that little line in italics wasn't added until the 1950's or 60's (I cant remember the exact date). It was put in there to appease some people who were SERIOUSLY protesting the removal of forced prayer in school.
(If they dont pray in school then they'll begin worshipping Satan and believing evolution!!!) It also wasn't originally on the money either.. That is more of a reference to the end of the "gold standard".
God is seen as a generic higher power, but only for "separation of church and state" reasons. Most of those fuckers really wanted to bring the sudden upsurging of religion into their backing.
I mean really... any congressman who didn't embrace Jesus and his saviour right now wouldn't be elected again. The churches suddenly have backing and power again. -Chris IP: Logged |
MightyMon
s0m30n3 s3t up us the m0n
|
posted 09-21-2001 20:08
Originally posted by j1mb0:
quote:
That's not why I'm bitching at ALL.
*snip* quote:
And furthermore, I never said christian PRAYER was thoughtless - what I fucking well SAID was that government officials declaring an official "National Prayer Day" was thoughtless at best, and politically cynical at worst.
Perhaps I took it the wrong way, but your first paragraph seems to indicate otherwise. You grouped "Christians blathering on and on about prayer" and "the president declaring a 'National Prayer Day'" under the general term of "prayermongering". You make no distinction, in that paragraph or the rest of your post, between the actions of individual Christians and the government declaring a non-denominational "Prayer Day". As I said, I get your point. This is not a religion vs. religion conflict, and should not be made to appear so, by either individuals or the government. Unfortunately, some people are; but by my inference, the government is not, regardless of what national days are called. ------------------
Another thread killed by MightyMon. IP: Logged |
Zornog
PenIsite
|
posted 09-21-2001 20:15
quote:
Originally posted by Clme:
I pledge alegiance,
To the flag,
of the United States of America, And to the Republic,
for which is stands,
One nation,
under God,
Indivisible,
For liberty and justice for all.
Actually ... there's no pause inbetween "one nation" and "under God." 
IP: Logged |
kokinolimoneiki
Member with a member
|
posted 09-21-2001 20:32
I agree that "American" and "Christian" are NOT the same thing. But on this night, as we bicker and bitch and moan and argue over the petty semantics of whether "Prayer Day" is or is not generic enough for non-Christians, there are hundreds, thousands of people who are NOT bitching and moaning and they are and have been digging and giving aid and money and time and love and I know for a fucking fact that some of these people are not all "Christians." Why must we do this? Why can't we just accept that it is at least better to take time out of our mostly mundane days and be quiet, be solemn, be strong and be fucking American?
I don't give a flying fuck what religion you are or aren't. I refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school because I do not believe in God. I agree with ANY form of freedom of speech. You can, simply by being American, agree or disagree about all this. It's why I live here and not anywhere else. It's why we can talk about this over the net. It's why we are American.
If you don't want to do what the HR tool said, then DON'T. You aren't bound by law, like in some places on earth, to do anything for your country except pay taxes. That's not a lot to ask. Not for what freedoms we have. I am in shock over all this shit - people killing people because they look Arab, or people bitching because they were asked to "pray." You can "pray" any way you choose. You can call upon the mighty fucking spirit of Satan for all I care. You should think about that before bitching some more.P.S. --- I expressed way more anger at the Falwell/Robertson farce than you have over this. Extremists, whether blaspheming Allah to murder thousands, or blaming the ACLU for what happened are still extremists. My problem is why I can say that. Why am I a good judge of what blaspheming is? What the fuck? I've confused myself now. g'nite. ------------------
One for sorrow two for joy
Three for girls four for boys
Five for silver six for gold
Seven for a secret never to be told [This message has been edited by kokinolimoneiki (edited 09-21-2001).] [This message has been edited by kokinolimoneiki (edited 09-21-2001).] [This message has been edited by kokinolimoneiki (edited 09-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Deadbeat
PenIsite
|
posted 09-21-2001 20:43
So religious people need a "national prayer day" in order to pray and grieve? Why? Can't everyone just go ahead and do their business without a government-sanctioned time to do it? Having a government official designate a day for religious reflection clearly violates the supposed separation of church and state. It was simply Bush using this tragedy to publicly kiss the ass of the religious right.------------------
THERE ARE NO VEGETARIAN GODS IP: Logged |
kokinolimoneiki
Member with a member
|
posted 09-21-2001 20:48
I SERIOUSLY fucking doubt that Bush was at ALL worried about kissing the religious right's ass. Maybe he wanted to set aside time for everyone to be quiet and do whatever they perceived as comforting, all at the same time. As a fucking point, as a mark in time to distinguish and grieve and recognize what has happened. I am not the biggest fan of Bush. I mean, until now, he has yet to impress me. But saying shit like that is just ridiculous and basically makes you look like an asshole.IP: Logged |
Clme
cake fiend
|
posted 09-21-2001 20:56
Damage control. It was ALL damage control. Keep people occupied and calm. Besides... Bush does as he's told like a good boy. IP: Logged |
MightyMon
s0m30n3 s3t up us the m0n
|
posted 09-21-2001 20:59
quote:
Originally posted by Deadbeat:
Having a government official designate a day for religious reflection clearly violates the supposed separation of church and state. It was simply Bush using this tragedy to publicly kiss the ass of the religious right.
If that helps you sleep any better at night, go ahead and think that way. *edited to add this* quote:
Originally posted by Shelly:
Damage control. It was ALL damage control.
Keep people occupied and calm.Besides... Bush does as he's told like a good boy.
Goddammit, I'm sorry. Maybe I missed out on the bulk of the cynicism that affects the so-called Gen-X'ers and -Y'ers. But fucking christ people --- what is happening, what is going to happen is way too fucking important to trivialize with snide, off-hand, or conspiratorial remarks. Done "to appease the christian right"? Bush acts "like a good little boy"? Wake the fuck up. These are not your everyday politics, and these are not your everyday moments that we witness on TV. ------------------
Another thread killed by MightyMon. [This message has been edited by MightyMon (edited 09-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Clme
cake fiend
|
posted 09-21-2001 21:08
quote:
Originally posted by MightyMon:
If that helps you sleep any better at night, go ahead and think that way.
I agree with Deadbeat on most of that actually. I dont sleep well though. It worries the FUCK out of me. But... like I said before: It was all damage control. I have a feeling though that if this were to appear before the supreme court that they would say "since it was a 'generic day of prayer' it violates nothing but Clme's tender ass" I hate it when things violate my tender ass. Most of the time. -Chris [This message has been edited by Clme (edited 09-21-2001).] IP: Logged |
Clme
cake fiend
|
posted 09-21-2001 21:55
Reply to Mons edit:Damage control is actually the mark of a good leader. Thats part of the reason I dont think that good ol' G.W. was in charge of that one. BUT: A day of forced prayer leaves out a lot of people. There were and are people who think that if you weren't praying at noon of that day, then you are unamerican. I know I work with some of them. I was fine with lighting candles. Thats showing support. I was fine with the initial "day of mourning"... until it turned into a day of prayer. Yes there are much more important things to worry about... but too much worrying about the big things makes me want to turn off the computer and start digging a bomb shelter in my back yard. These things CAN be important though. How does the rest of the world feel when the U.S. starts to present itself as the "Christian Crusader"? I'm not against prayer. I'm against the mob idea that "If you didn't pray, you're unamerican". I'm against the people who email "DL-All" messages and I'm even more against the people who INSIST on forwarding it to everyone in the company as if they wanted a second, third, and fourth copy. I'm against HR personnel breaking their own rules. I'm against tailgating. I'm against making violence against peoples of other religions just because bin-laden may be of their religion. I'm against gun control. I'm against even considering a nuclear attack.
Please keep in mind that I've never said that I'm against people praying. I'm not. I'm against the idea that everyone will/must pray. After all... thats how that God line got into the pledge of allegience.
IP: Logged |
Clme
cake fiend
|
posted 09-21-2001 22:29
Actually I think we're missing out on an issue even greater than that of religion:
Who ever wrote that has forever soiled the sacred name of Dr. Suess!!!!!
I mean... who took a decent Dr. Suess story and mangled it in that fashion?
That person is evil. They are going to hell. IP: Logged |
Snag
Leaky Pen
|
posted 09-21-2001 23:17
quote:
Originally posted by Clme:
That person is evil. They are going to hell.
Not Unless, we... pray for them.
(snicker, snicker...) ------------------
All your... shut the fuck up. IP: Logged |
InThrees
Member with a member bigger than the member with a member
|
posted 09-21-2001 23:35
Ok, let me just blurt out what most of you missed from Jim's post.All this talk about Christian this and prayer that and Jeebus this coming from my elected officials is alienating me. I am not a Christian. I am not anything, except an angry American who longs for radical-Islamic blood in the streets of whatever shantytown they temporarily call home. While I do respect an individual's right to pray, or not pray, as they see fit, I don't want my government selling it on prime time tv. That makes me nervous. Think back to one of the prime reasons people emigrated to the colonies. Religious persecution. Half the people in my locale already equate patriotism with faith, the day will come when 'unbelievers' are accused of being anti-american. (Ok, that's alarmist, sure, but it bothers me.) -3 IP: Logged |
InThrees
Member with a member bigger than the member with a member
|
posted 09-21-2001 23:37
Rather than edit to add this, I'll just post again.The other part of all this focus on 'prayer' that bothers me reminds me of that old adage... Piss into one hand, and pray into the other, and see which fills up faster. In this case, it's pray into one hand, and fire a few M-203 grenades into the other, and see which gets more results. Enough prayer, let's go teach the infidel some manners. -3 IP: Logged |
CapnBiggles
clmesdad. stopplease sirmyass is bleeding
|
posted 09-21-2001 23:57
God, Allah, its all the same to me. There's a head honcho upstairs, and we all look at him the same way. And for those who dont believe in that, or believe in something else: hey, that's cool too.
Nothing to do with the topic at hand I guess, but I felt like saying it. IP: Logged | |
UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
PenIs Forum
