I'm so glad they are focusing on this! I mean, they are totally not just distracting from concussion debates, NFL corporate tax breaks, yielding to a presidential abuse of power, or avoiding dealing with the actual reasons why viewership is down. Everything makes complete sense.
(Even if this were an issue that mattered to someone besides Trump, I don't know why we don't just fucking go back to having the teams stay in their locker rooms until the game starts).
@Bill said:
A commercial enterprise is covering its ass because a majority of its customers were offended by the behavior of some of its employees.
On the one hand that's not quite true, but on the other it's completely orthogonal to the fact that your leaders are applauding compulsory displays of nationalism.
@Clme said:
I don't know why we don't just fucking go back to having the teams stay in their locker rooms until the game starts).
You'll be glad to hear it's not because the DoD pays the NFL, although the DoD does pay the NFL a bunch of money for patriotic displays other than anthem ceremonies.
The NFL is protecting its profits. What you are describing as "compulsory displays of nationalism," most of the NFL's patrons consider politeness.
PS: If you are at an event where they play the Canadian national anthem, say a Bluejays game, it's considered polite to stand even if you are a United States citizen.
It feels like it's changing over time. When I was a kid, I think a lot of people were pretty leery about, say, forcing kids to recite the pledge of allegiance in schools. Nowadays there are no positions on issues, just left-vs-right dynamics. If a bunch of kids started protesting gun laws by holding ironic "pledge-ins", Trump would probably ban it and Fox would say allegiance pledges reek of communism.
That said, you can't deny that Canadians wear their flag pretty obsessively At least Canadians abroad, anyway. (And with good reason, granted...)
A majority of fans stopped watching the NFL because of players kneeling? Hmm. That doesn't seem right. But in any case I'm curious if the majority of fans know this story: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/
...Because the president and veep either don't know, or don't care. Which is why this keeps going.
The owners are mostly just trying to get the president and his mouthpieces to stop interfering with their private enterprise. There were only a few owners that didn't support the players on this, but the rest need the negativity to stop before the next batch of contracts/stadium funding/tax levies/welfare-money-for-football-owners comes up for a vote. There are a LOT of reasons the NFL is losing money, but the pledge is really low on the list. Although... at this point Twitter not enforcing its harassment policies (if the harasser is in a position of political power) definitely outranks the pledge issue. ;-)
On a side note... I'm really tired of the people on the left claiming that being fined for kneeling is somehow a violation of the players civil rights. Its in their contracts now, and they are at work. Just like its in my work contract that if I do something absolutely horrible and get in the news my job will fire me to mitigate negative press. So if a news story came up that said: "See that guy running naked with 'Fuck Trump' written on the shaved part of his back? He works for Corporate-Place!" then I may as well not show up to work the next day.
Now, there could be something with the 1942(?) court ruling about religous/other exemptions for mandatory patriotism. However, I guess they actually are giving players the option to stay in the locker room if they don't want to stand so I'm not sure if even a religious exemption would apply.
Maybe they could have a case if they could argue that they only have to stand because the president and veep made it mandatory? Nah, probably not. Whoever brought that case would ruin their career, and then they may as well take a stand against concussions instead.
Neat, you should bring that up if you meet someone who's interested in the NFL.
This thread is about your elected leaders applauding compelled displays of nationalism.
If you aren't talking about the NFL kneeling fiasco, what are you talking about?
How are you separating nationalism from politeness. I was taught in elementary school that it is polite to stand if a national anthem, any national anthem, is played. If it isn't your national anthem, you don't put your hand or hat over your heart.
Also, last I heard, elected officials are still citizens who have a right to express their opinions.
Finally, the only compulsion here is commercial interests protecting profits. The employees can quit if they don't like it. It is far different from the government using force or the threat of force to compel obedience.
@fenomas said:
That said, you can't deny that Canadians wear their flag pretty obsessively At least Canadians abroad, anyway. (And with good reason, granted...)
That's a deliberate choice, and a well known travel tip.
In Canada, you have to look hard to find a Canadian flag outside of public buildings. Someone with a flag hanging on their house or on a flag poll in their yard is extremely rare, and no one uses the Canadian flag as a part of their business signage or marketing materials. The only time the flag comes out is on Canada Day (July 1st).
@Bill said:
How are you separating nationalism from politeness. I was taught in elementary school that it is polite to stand if a national anthem, any national anthem, is played. If it isn't your national anthem, you don't put your hand or hat over your heart.
We are men of action, lies do not become us.
That is, the situation is unambiguous - several players started kneeling as a form of political speech, some NFL fans disagree with the content of that speech, and so the league is trying to make the players stop. Side with the NFL if you like, but pretending to believe that the whole kerfuffle is about politeness is unseemly.
Also, last I heard, elected officials are still citizens who have a right to express their opinions.
That's a pretty weird thing to say. If you agree with Trump and Pence that compelled nationalism is neat, why not say so? If not, why grasp so hard for a way to defend them?
Consider: if A complains about Trump lying all the time, and B says "Well lying isn't illegal", what does that say about B? Honestly think about that for a second. B knows perfectly well that A wasn't saying lying should be illegal. So what's B trying to say?
Comments
I'm so glad they are focusing on this! I mean, they are totally not just distracting from concussion debates, NFL corporate tax breaks, yielding to a presidential abuse of power, or avoiding dealing with the actual reasons why viewership is down. Everything makes complete sense.
(Even if this were an issue that mattered to someone besides Trump, I don't know why we don't just fucking go back to having the teams stay in their locker rooms until the game starts).
A commercial enterprise is covering its ass because a majority of its customers were offended by the behavior of some of its employees.
On the one hand that's not quite true, but on the other it's completely orthogonal to the fact that your leaders are applauding compulsory displays of nationalism.
You'll be glad to hear it's not because the DoD pays the NFL, although the DoD does pay the NFL a bunch of money for patriotic displays other than anthem ceremonies.
The NFL is protecting its profits. What you are describing as "compulsory displays of nationalism," most of the NFL's patrons consider politeness.
PS: If you are at an event where they play the Canadian national anthem, say a Bluejays game, it's considered polite to stand even if you are a United States citizen.
Neat, you should bring that up if you meet someone who's interested in the NFL.
This thread is about your elected leaders applauding compelled displays of nationalism.
Isn't a failure to show a sufficient amount of nationalism cause for condemnation in America? I'd always believed that was a thing...
The number of "flag-wavers" is always a point of amusement, whenever I travel in the US.
It feels like it's changing over time. When I was a kid, I think a lot of people were pretty leery about, say, forcing kids to recite the pledge of allegiance in schools. Nowadays there are no positions on issues, just left-vs-right dynamics. If a bunch of kids started protesting gun laws by holding ironic "pledge-ins", Trump would probably ban it and Fox would say allegiance pledges reek of communism.
That said, you can't deny that Canadians wear their flag pretty obsessively
At least Canadians abroad, anyway. (And with good reason, granted...)
A majority of fans stopped watching the NFL because of players kneeling? Hmm. That doesn't seem right. But in any case I'm curious if the majority of fans know this story:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/
...Because the president and veep either don't know, or don't care. Which is why this keeps going.
The owners are mostly just trying to get the president and his mouthpieces to stop interfering with their private enterprise. There were only a few owners that didn't support the players on this, but the rest need the negativity to stop before the next batch of contracts/stadium funding/tax levies/welfare-money-for-football-owners comes up for a vote. There are a LOT of reasons the NFL is losing money, but the pledge is really low on the list. Although... at this point Twitter not enforcing its harassment policies (if the harasser is in a position of political power) definitely outranks the pledge issue. ;-)
On a side note... I'm really tired of the people on the left claiming that being fined for kneeling is somehow a violation of the players civil rights. Its in their contracts now, and they are at work. Just like its in my work contract that if I do something absolutely horrible and get in the news my job will fire me to mitigate negative press. So if a news story came up that said: "See that guy running naked with 'Fuck Trump' written on the shaved part of his back? He works for Corporate-Place!" then I may as well not show up to work the next day.
Now, there could be something with the 1942(?) court ruling about religous/other exemptions for mandatory patriotism. However, I guess they actually are giving players the option to stay in the locker room if they don't want to stand so I'm not sure if even a religious exemption would apply.
Maybe they could have a case if they could argue that they only have to stand because the president and veep made it mandatory? Nah, probably not. Whoever brought that case would ruin their career, and then they may as well take a stand against concussions instead.
If you aren't talking about the NFL kneeling fiasco, what are you talking about?
How are you separating nationalism from politeness. I was taught in elementary school that it is polite to stand if a national anthem, any national anthem, is played. If it isn't your national anthem, you don't put your hand or hat over your heart.
Also, last I heard, elected officials are still citizens who have a right to express their opinions.
Finally, the only compulsion here is commercial interests protecting profits. The employees can quit if they don't like it. It is far different from the government using force or the threat of force to compel obedience.
That's a deliberate choice, and a well known travel tip.
In Canada, you have to look hard to find a Canadian flag outside of public buildings. Someone with a flag hanging on their house or on a flag poll in their yard is extremely rare, and no one uses the Canadian flag as a part of their business signage or marketing materials. The only time the flag comes out is on Canada Day (July 1st).
We are men of action, lies do not become us.
That is, the situation is unambiguous - several players started kneeling as a form of political speech, some NFL fans disagree with the content of that speech, and so the league is trying to make the players stop. Side with the NFL if you like, but pretending to believe that the whole kerfuffle is about politeness is unseemly.
That's a pretty weird thing to say. If you agree with Trump and Pence that compelled nationalism is neat, why not say so? If not, why grasp so hard for a way to defend them?
Consider: if A complains about Trump lying all the time, and B says "Well lying isn't illegal", what does that say about B? Honestly think about that for a second. B knows perfectly well that A wasn't saying lying should be illegal. So what's B trying to say?